About alienated adult children

This page is for discussion about children who are beyond the court cut off age of 16 in the UK and 18 in the US.

15 comments

  1. Dolly · August 12

    My fiance had no contact with his son since he was 8 years old, up to this point he had regular supervised contact which lead to court granting unsupervised contact, on the 1st day of this unsupervised contact dad was to meet in a nearby town and mum was to handover son…agreed in court with mum but instead step-dad arrived for the handover and mum was nowhere to be seen, son screamed at his dad that he hated him and never wanted to see him and was in state of distress, step dad scooped up son and proceeded to run through the town with my fiances screaming son…..as you can imagine dad was completely shocked and his reaction was to give chase, he caught up with step dad and son in a car park where mum was waiting in the car….some shouting and a scuffle broke out between dad and step dad, by now son was in the car crying and completely distressed.

    This was to be the last time dad saw his son, went back to court a few weeks later and the outcome of it all, advised by the judge that it was in the best interests of the child that dad give up pursuing contact and any professional help for his sons state of mind as this would only push his son further away and to let his son come to him when he was ready, when he was older! My fiance took the advice as he really believed that the judge knew better and the last thing dad wanted was for his son to be upset at the thought of having to meet him again. Indirect contact was granted, dad could send cards or a letter (dad did this for years , mum said son didn’t open letters or cards from dad, son was not interested was her statement in court) and mum was to send some photos of son once a year…of which she did…the very bare minimum!

    I would just like to add here, although it is not really what’s important, dad has always supported his son financially ie maintenance and via the CSA.

    Fast forward 11 years, my fiance obtained his sons mobile number through social media and contacted his son direct. Within a week they met at a nearby park,son brought his girlfriend which dad didn’t mind as it was their first meet and understood son for wanting this, the meet lasted about 30 minutes as son was anxious they would be seen by mum or associates and she would not be happy (we live in a fairly small town, mum & son have always lived within 5 minutes of us) they kept it brief and my fiance handed over his birthday card and some money that he had saved for his son, they hugged and all seemed well. Over the next few weeks lots of messages were exchanged between them and a couple of meetings took place, every time they met dad would give son money or stuff as son was desperate for financial help and not living with his mum and living with his girlfriend and her family. Every time they met over these few weeks son would always bring his girlfriend on one occasion they met in a coffee place with son and sons friends….. dad just wanted to spend time alone with his son, all in good time, he thought this was just the beginning and there would be plenty of time to get to know each other on a one to one.

    That was summer/ autumn last year, my fiance had expressed a wish on several occasions that he would like to spend time with his son on his own and suggested going out for dinners, coming to our home, meeting his other half of the family etc etc…..winter set in and no contact was had between them, they exchanged Christmas and NYE wishes via text but that was it.

    The next time dad heard from his son was, as before, that he needed something, money & stuff…..and so a pattern was emerging, son would only contact dad when he needed something which dad duly gave…although he knew this was not good it was better then having no contact at all!

    From Christmas last year until June this year, no real contact was had accept a couple of short texts, how are you and that sort thing.

    June this year, again message received that son needed something (equipment for his new business) and to be fair to son, it was dad who insisted on meeting to give son money for the equipment. They met up one Sunday morning and went for coffee and discussed up and coming father’s day, son birthday and that one of my fiances sisters would be coming to England in August and would be great for son to meet his Auntie and cousins as they do not visit England very often.

    Fathers day came and went, no messages or card …nothing. Sons birthday a few weeks ago, dad wished him a happy birthday, no response, not even a thank you.

    Auntie now here for the month and dad decided to call son to arrange a meet up with all of them, son answered and made apologies for his phone had apparently been broken, son ‘made all the right noises’ in as much as he seemed keen and happy to meet up. Come the day, dad rings son to make final arrangements to all meet up……no answer, dad tried to call all day and got no answer….the meet never happened.

    Dad now totally distraught, angry….a whole bundle of emotions :(…. as his fiance and partner of 17 years i am finding it really difficult to know what to say, what the right thing to say or do to make dad feel better, we have been here too many times now and i just don’t know what to say or do to make dad feel better about himself anymore, i have tried put myself in sons shoes and all i can come up with is that due to the manipulating ways of mother, son unfortunately is well taught and is also a manipulator? I have even thought and suggested to dad that son is maybe frightened, anxious and self preservation is what he is doing….keeping the status quo is easier then dealing with deep down feelings he would rather keep buried? i just don’t really know!

    Son is 20 years old now, a mature 20 year old from what i have heard…..so why is he treating dad so disgracefully?
    I am writing this as i am hoping someone would have some advice that i could pass on to my fiance and maybe help us to understand sons behaviour?

    Dad wants to move away from our area we have lived for over 20 years, all our friends and family live nearby and i feel that this is not the answer and that the problem will still be hanging over us no matter where we lived 😦

    I always believed that when son grew up and could have direct contact with this dad with no interference from alienating mum we would all live happy ever after……i am guessing that only happens in fairy stories 😦

    Thank you for reading and sorry if things are a bit sketchy but a 5000 page book would not be enough room to write everything down!

    Best Regards

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  2. Everythinghappensforareason · August 24

    https://karenwoodall.wordpress.com/2016/05/31/prisoners-of-a-parents-mind-on-the-futility-of-therapy-in-alienation-cases/

    You might find the above discussion helpful, Dolly

    Your plight resonates with me greatly as my partner of 8 years has walked in similar shoes to your own over that period.

    My suggestion is that your fiancΓ© uses every ounce of the frustrated energy he has to deeply understand the painful emotional trauma his son has been subjected to for all these years – this blog goes a long way to assisting but we also have to ‘work on ourselves’ as individuals to make any real sense of the way forward and what, if any, influence we have on that future. With greater understanding, genuine empathy for your step-son will follow and allow the walls of fear (on both sides) to be dismantled

    Let me have your thoughts (or questions) should my comments in the above link/discussion make any sense to you

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  3. Dolly · August 26

    Thank You Karen, thankfully for now the frustration,hurt & anger has subsided and my fiance is doing what he has always done which is to keep busy and getting on with life.

    We truly believe that one day they will have the relationship that every dad & son should have/has, we will always leave the door open…..we just can’t rush these things and patience is ‘key’.

    Everything i have read about PA and all your blogs make complete sense to me, i have passed on what i have learned to my fiance and it has definitely helped him to understand the whats,why’s & how’s……….it is really common sense mostly!

    With regards to the link posted, we will never know if court ordered therapy would have helped as it was strongly suggested by solicitor,mother & judge that to continue to pursue contact and to push his son into therapy would have had the opposite effect and would only serve to push son further away….with the benefit of hindsight i think mum,dad & son could have benefited greatly from therapy, particularly as neither mum or dad had a normal stable family life as children themselves. Back then we did not have access to so much information that is available now, we didn’t own a computer or have access to the internet…..”.if we’d known then what we know now………….”

    Of course it’s not too late, its never too late….. i am so thankful that i found your page as well as links to other useful pages/people also working in this field, thank you for bringing awareness to normal people like us as well as educating the professionals about the child abuse that is Parental Alienation.

    Kind Regards

    Dolly

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  4. Marieke van Woerkom · January 4

    Dear Karen,

    I have got two young adult daughters, 21 and 18 years old. Since I left their father, 6 years ago, the contact has been difficult. The first 4 years they visited my on an irregular basis, the last 2 years there has been no contact at all. Unfortunately I found out too late about a parental alienation; the harm was already done I had responded the wrong way. This summer I followed the online course of Ryan Thomas from which I learnt to contact my children every two weeks with a short email mentioning that I love them and think of them. Still without success, no contact.

    However, they do visit my mother and sisters on also an irregular basis, and this contact seems to improve. The last visit took place yesterday, in which they mentioned not to appreciate the two-weekly emails I sent them and they also do not want me to visit them at their home (which I did over the last months for special occassions; birthday and holidays – I handed them presents). They specifically asked my mothers and sisters to inform me not to contact them anymore on a two weekly basis and just wait them to contact me.

    I am confused right now; it this good news and will they contact me in the near future or if this just another sign of allienation?

    Kind regards,
    Marieke

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    • karenwoodall · January 4

      Hi Marieke,

      I find it hard to give advice when I don’t have all of the information I need to do so but I will try.

      You must remember at all times that an alienated child is captured in their minds by the parent who is causing it. You left their father, as revenge he took the children’s freedom of mind away either deliberately or because of his reaction to you leaving I cannot say which as I do not know enough but the children were captured in his reaction. A contact relationship with children who are left with a parent who is unstable of mind and unpredictable is always a risk, over time the children were not able to cope with this and their father’s intolerance of their relationship with you grew and as it did their withdrawal from you grew stronger. This is a common pattern in alienation of mothers. Your children were at ages which rendered them vulnerable to psychological splitting when you left, this is not to blame you but to explain to you the impact on them. To cope they aligned with their father and rejected you. As such they are still stuck in that pattern and unfortunately writing to them twice a month won’t help if they are caught in the emotional and psychological delusional mindset of their father because all they can do, see, feel and hear are his feelings and his words and his bidding. They cannot respond to you because it is not safe for them to do so, what if their father found out? What if they betrayed him? What could they do if he was upset? You might think that those are not big issues and that you will help them but in their mindset this is not possible, you left their father, you might leave them too, they are likely to be unable to move in any direction for fear that something will go wrong, they are likely to confused, lacking in perspective and trust and afraid. They are also likely to be burying grief, belief in the world as a good place to be and coping as best they can by using psychological splitting. What they need is to know that you are there to receive them when they are ready to break free and that you are strong enough to cope with helping them. How you get that message to them has to be done carefully, you cannot rush into it, you have to lay a trail and encourage them onto it, you have to be patient, you have to be their stronger and healthier parent, you have to be able to build a road for them to walk free on. I hope that helps a bit, as I said I cannot give generic advice I need to know so much more about the past to be able to give clear guidance but I hope it helps. You can get a lot more help from our new book which is in its final publication stage now and from parental alienation direct which we will launch later this year. We also provide coaching at the Clinic which you can access at appts@familyseparationclinic.co.uk we have to charge for coaching but everything we charge for goes to fund our research and further our work with families so notbing is wasted. Kind Regards Karen

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      • Everythinghappensforareason · January 5

        Hi Karen, thank you so much for this succinct summary of the important tenets of PA that we can all benefit from remembering……that, whilst a narrative has been so skillfully developed around the alienated parent’s character, the reality is that PA has very little to do with the targeted parent’s personality and everything to do with the alienator’s damaged sense of Self. That, in short, there is a limit to our influence and ability to rescue the captured minds of our children and also that, as such, we need to be kind to ourselves on our journeys

        Marketers – I, for one, am extremely grateful you asked the question you did

        A Happy New Year to you, Karen, and to all the users of this forum xx

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      • Everythinghappensforareason · January 5

        Apologies, Marieke – the predictive text error eluded me before sending my post

        Like

      • Anonymous · January 16

        Thank you for this dialogue, this is very helpful to me. This is affirmation that is needed for the soul. I am an alienated mother of 3 children all early to late 20’s. While there are other helpful people speaking out like Ryan Thomas and Doctor Childress and many others making videos to help the targeted parent, the reality is that those video’s are highly unlikely to work for severe cases. I can only speak from my experience. Though the children are adults now they are still stuck in the father’s reaction and are not free. He is their world and still depend on him and his family support system. It is hard to step away from the regime. The regime I speak of is the eldest daughter and their father’s mother and sisters. I cannot battle this regime. I cannot penetrate the high walls they have built. It has been 13 years. I feel like letting go, but even in letting go there is no rest because the pain continues and is haunting. The eldest daughter ( almost 29) has taken my place and is like espoused to her father. This may sound sick, but that is how I see it. Though she has a little girl (8 months) now and I thought she may see things differently, but she still marches on with the same unhealthy thought process. I do not see any change. I don’t know when change will happen. It seems very unlikely.

        Karen mentions a path for them to walk on and being careful how the messages are sent/received. That is what I need to work on.

        Karen-thank you for all you do; it is truly priceless.

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  5. Willow · January 4

    Marieke I feel for you and I hope Karen replies because I’d be interested in her answer.

    My daughter was fifteen when my husband decided he didn’t like me very much and started telling me (and her) that he preferred her to me. When she was nasty to me (for no reason) he encouraged her and told her in front of me that she was an adult and entitled to her opinion about me. He smirked when she turned on me and would not back me up if I tried to tell her off. We ended up living a life with her and him at the top of the family pecking order and me kept firmly at the bottom. I knew if I left him I would never see her again. When I finally left after 19 years of treading on eggshells with both of them my daughter was 33 years old. It wasn’t until that point that I began to search for answers and realised what had been happening all that time (and was still happening even though she no longer lived at home). It broke my heart but I had to leave for my own wellbeing and sanity. My husband told a counsellor that he didn’t see why he had to attend because he had done nothing wrong ever. As far as he was concerned it was my behaviour and my ‘obsession’ with the dog. (!!!) It was at that point I knew I had to leave because nothing would get through to him. (He was emotionally and verbally abusive).

    After I left (two years ago)I continued to send my daughter cards and loving emails. I wanted to keep the door open but it was firmly shut. She cut off my sister and her daughters (same age as my daughter) but continued to send cards to my 90 year old dad. He thought that if she was sending him cards it might be a way back but it was more likely a gesture to prove some sort of point in her mind since up until that point I had constantly had to remind her to send him cards and where to send them. As soon as I left she suddenly remembered where he lived! This Xmas he received a card from her on the very day he was rushed to hospital. I emailed her to tell her he was in hospital but as usual heard nothing. When my dad saw my sister he was very upset on my behalf and fretted for days that my daughter was ignoring me completely. My sister wrote to my daughter telling her how upsetting it was for all of us and that I didn’t deserve this treatment because I had been a great mum to her.

    My daughter replied by email and wrote:

    Thank you for your letter.
    I am sorry to hear that grandpa has been ill and I hope he gets better soon. It was not my intention to upset him and I can only apologise. With regards to my mother I am glad that she is happy, it sounds as though she has finally found a place that has enabled her to be happy in herself and her life. I am glad that we can both live our own separate lives and be happy. The fact remains that some relationships are just not healthy for either party and unfortunately that will never change. I wish you all the best for the future and rest assured I will not be in contact again.

    That was it. I always knew that if I ever left her father (who is perfect in her eyes – unlike me) I would never see her again but, for two years after I left, I just wanted to keep the door open. The one good thing that has come out of my sister’s letter and my estranged daughter’s emailed reply is that I have final closure. After two years of hell, I am finally at peace with it all. My anthem for 2017 is “Roar” by Katie Perry (Eye of a Tiger). It’s how I feel right now!

    I still cannot believe how well my husband engineered this situation or how much my once loving daughter has changed towards me. Until he discovered her at the age of fifteen he wasn’t much interested in her but now he treats her like a surrogate partner. It is all very sad. It’s as if he and she set out to get rid of me.

    I often wish that Karen could write some articles about what happens to those children who grow up into adulthood but never find a way out of this nightmare. But at least someone is working towards a better future. I only wish I had known what was happening years ago, though I am not at all sure the outcome would have been better.

    I wish all alienated parents peace in 2017.

    With every good wish for the future,
    Willow πŸ™‚

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    • karenwoodall · January 4

      Dear Willow, it is with sadness I read your reply to Marieke, you have been through so much and have lost so much and your daughter at 33 has lost too much too, I don’t know if she has children yet but when she does she risks further loss should she not be able to resolve this for herself, the psychologically split state of mind puts her very much at risk of being involved with someone like her father, someone who will manipulate her and eradicate her if she steps out of line. You are right in your comment that he treats her like a surrogate partner, he does, in fact in his mind she is not even surrogate, she IS his partner, she is his revenge and his salvation all at once, he is the captor who can only feel safe when he has complete control, you stepped out of that and his revenge is to take your daughter in your place. In many respects her freedom will only come when she is able to free her mind, for now anything you do will simply entrench her position. For now you must concentrate on your life, ROAR loudly and wildly and be free for you will likely be needed when she begins her emergence to freedom (which may be soon or may take longer, predicting it would require us to know much more about her father’s history). The issue is that this is the transgenerational haunting pattern which is seen in pure alienation, it is the medea complex writ large, it is the repetition of coercive control which leads to total wipeout of anyone who steps out of line, in these circumstances you don’t get half measures you get in or out and if you choose out it means out forever. I know this profile well it is common in alienation of mothers though it is not talked about often enough in my view. I can believe how well he engineered it, these personality types live this way, this is the alienator I write about in the ‘I am the Alienator’ piece. I send you my love and support Willow, you must live and live free because that living creates a path for your daughter to walk on, you cannot make that the only reason for living free but it is one of them. She has a journey ahead of her which may well involve her own experience of loss of her own children, time will tell, there are things you can do and you can try but I can’t give you generic advice other than to say your life lived well is an antidote to the poisonous nature of what is being done to her. With love Karen

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  6. Willow · January 5

    Dear Karen
    I cannot thank you enough for your reply. You have said everything that has slowly been dawning on me for the past two years. A very welcome and very freeing response. Thank you. I hope that Marieke has a better outcome and finds peace but if not, I hope she will come to know that it is possible to go on.

    Your words ………. “The issue is that this is the transgenerational haunting pattern which is seen in pure alienation, it is the medea complex writ large, it is the repetition of coercive control which leads to total wipeout of anyone who steps out of line, in these circumstances you don’t get half measures you get in or out and if you choose out it means out forever.” ………. got it so right. That was my life with him. With both of them. But I am pretty sure it will not continue through the generations though I may be wrong. My daughter has been just as adamant since she was a late teenager that she NEVER wants children. My husband constantly told her how boring babies and toddlers are and how disgusting childbirth is (!!) perhaps that is why.

    My mother was in many ways like the personality you wrote about when you wrote : “puts her very much at risk of being involved with someone like her father, someone who will manipulate her and eradicate her if she steps out of line.”.
    I swore from a very early age that I would never be like my mother and I am not, but I married the equivalent of my mother! My daughter is very much a controller. She has to be in charge. It is all or nothing. Black and white thinking!What I see in my husband is what I see in my daughter but in some ways, she was worse in the end than him especially towards me. My daughter’s husband (they married just a year ago) is (I think) very much like my father, a good man but weak, an enabler who goes with the flow – anything for a quiet life.

    My husband’s father was a silent man. That is all I can say about him. He was a shadow. His mother was in charge. For her it was all about BLOOD. My husband told me our daughter was his blood. I was not. His mother was diagnosed as a manic depressive and for all of his teenage years tried to take her own life. It was he who found her each time when he came home from school and saved her. He adored his mother but I am pretty sure it left him unable to deal with any one else’s emotions. His mother made her friend promise to ‘look after my son” if anything happened to her, but she had a daughter too who was only three years older than her son. A year after we got married, his mother succeeded in killing herself. One month later his sister also committed suicide. We were all very young. It seems very telling that his mother never asked her friend to look after both her children, only him (his mother’s friend told me about her request after his sister died).

    I am at the point that I don’t know what I would do if my daughter ever came back to me, mainly because I can never see it happening. She has changed so much. But I am going to continue to roar, for this year at least!

    I hope your work, Karen, will make huge strides in bringing this to the attention of the public and those who can make a difference like you do. I wish you every success in 2017. Willow πŸ™‚

    .

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  7. Marieke van Woerkom · January 5

    Dear Karen,

    Thank you very much for your kind reply. I am very interested in the book that you will be publishing later this year. Also I would love to be able to get access to coaching, however I am being pressured both emotionally (the kids) and financially by my ex-partner who placed distraint on my wages (hope this is a proper translation). This makes it even more difficult to find help for my girls.

    I know I have to be patient and be the stronger parent, however I am anxious to know for how much longer? As I explained the contact has been difficult for already six years and so much damage has been done to my kids already that I want to prevent any more damage.

    What I understand from my family who talked to my kids quite recently is that they do not wish me to contact them. at all. My eldest daughter even told them she more or less got a panic attack the day I visited her just before the hoidays and handed over two X-mas card for her sister and herself. They seem to be extremely afraid of me.

    The reason for this I do not know, and I can only guess at it. May be as you say the fact that I left their father caused dthe fear that I might leave them too. Which indeed I did, I was the one who ended the contact during the first four years, I did this even three times. Obviously this was totally wrong from me, but at the time not knowing about PA and feeling and seeing my kids floating further and further away from and growing more and more attached to their father I felt so extremely alone and not understood that I more or less told thim if you like your father all that much, you two better live with him. So this is most probably the reason, they are hurt and do not trust me anymore.

    The point is, how can I resolve this? My family is convinced that I should not contact them at all for the coming months and simply wait for them to contact me. like I have done before during other periods over the last six years. On the other hand research with adult s who grew up being alienated shows just the opposite; they state they were happy to receive news from the alienated parent. Furthermore, my kids are young adults right now, no small children any more. At a certain point in life one has to face the facts and start communicating in order to be able to solve the conflict, problem is I do not know when this will be?

    Kind regards,
    Marieke

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  8. silkred · February 9

    Hello – I am searching around for some way to understand the irrationally isolationist attitude to me from my youngest son (17), he was removed from me when my now ex took a job abroad when he was 13, this formed the first part of the dissolution of our 20 year marriage. I would see them both when they returned during school holidays – these visits would be very normal feeling but strange in that they were truncated leaving a deep void in their wake.

    During this time and in parallel I was having difficult interpersonal relationship with friends I know through a shared sport, this sport is quite an individual activity – you do it alone – but the ‘banter’ between everyone was a key part of the enjoyment of it – I fell out with one of the others who poisoned everyone ostracizing me from the group – I identified the person as having narcissistic personality disorder.

    While learning about NPD and via therapy and antidepressants getting to grips with it and climbing back to some form of sanity I came to recognise that my wife had been behaving this way all through my married life – using silent treatments – putting phones down mid sentence – leaving me socially isolated leaving me walking on eggshells and finally taking away my boys the youngest abroad and the oldest sent to boarding school via the financial support of her family.

    When she came back suddenly and for good I gave it a year to see what would happen knowing all this new stuff – having a rational framework that I could use to name her behaviour – but it was hopeless and so now we are divorced.

    My oldest boy is independent in university and so has escaped her influence – mostly – so I see him – have contact with him and know what he is doing one week to the next so I can offer help advice and money to aid it all and be a part of it.

    My youngest is still with her – when we split I took a flat near a school he had been accepted into for his 6th form – once I was in that flat she switched schools keeping him away from chances to stay part of the week with me – when I would turn up to see them – always at the old house that she now owns I would be greeted with – why did you not arrange your visit – you cant turn up like this – etc – I was unable to arrange these visits because they never replied to any attempt at contact. Soon me coming to the house was counter productive and tense feeling – but at least I would see him – now he will not respond to sms – email – phone calls – letters – nothing – key decisions about his education are taken without me knowing – I find out via other 3rd parties – I find I can sustain trying to see him for a while then for my own mental health I have to back off – then I start again and try some more – mindful now not to add emotional strain while he is studying for his A-Levels.

    Prior to this I had a good very typical loving relationship with my son – he is a clever – funny character who I now hardly recognise having been away from him during the 13 – 17 developmental stage when so much changes…

    I recognise that parental alienation has taken place – my ex has always been manipulative and always used the removal of things as a punishment – in a way it is a natural progression once I was away from the family home that she would make this happen – likely it has been a low level subtle use of disparaging comment over the dinner table or in his ear shot that over time has poisoned me in his eyes – being 17 he has the wit to contact me separately on his own but he choses not to – there is nothing in our history that would justify this removal of contact – nothing I have done to him that would warrant this in any way whatsoever.

    I feel quite stuck – all efforts to see him feel counter productive and result in nothing – my contact attempts evaporate into silence. I have no way to engage – with the NPD person I figured out how to cope – how to engage – he was omnipresent – he still is – its just that I now know how to deal with him, he still managed to damage beyond repair quite a few friendships but not all and not my participation in the sport. He created havoc but I survived.

    There was however an engagement – an interface – something to grip on – with my son there is nothing to feel what so ever – its like he does not exist – without something coming back from him to me then there is nothing to grapple with – to discuss – debate – recognise – all i have now is the knowledge that he is there – that he exists – that I in fact did have a son – its almost a sort of existential awareness – like a dream of sorts.

    What can I do?

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  9. Everythinghappensforareason · February 10

    Hi Silkred

    Distilling the above into one sentence, what do you want?

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  10. Willow · February 10

    Silkred, I just wanted to say that I HEAR you, really hear you.

    When you wrote ” all i have now is the knowledge that he is there – that he exists – that I in fact did have a son – its almost a sort of existential awareness – like a dream of sorts.” ………….. all I had to do was replace the ‘he’ for ‘she’ and it was me talking about my now adult daughter. And yes, it does feel like a dream of sorts – a distant memory. And I speak as one whose first child died aged five. My estranged (alienated) daughter is my only living child.

    I have no answers. I wish Karen could help give us one but I’m beginning to doubt that I for one will never find it. I think all I can do is live my life day to day just as I did when my first child died and know that either way, life goes on and I will survive because anything else is unthinkable.

    I hope that post hasn’t upset you. My best Wishes, Willow.

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